too bad you cant buy about a 300 amp hour battery exactly shaped like a Mac center/daggerboard..
Woops.. my VHF radio (cheap Uniden) burns 5.3 amp transmitting and .27amp squelched standby (about a factor of 20 not 200)
Experience with refrigerators on extended cruises?
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Retcoastie
- Captain
- Posts: 673
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:00 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Gray Hawk, Kentucky 2002 X "Last Flight"
Charging rate
You did not indicate what type batteries you had. I made the mistake of using my personal situation to respond about charger size.
We have AGMs and I called the factory. The tech said they would take all the charge I could shove into them. That is why I went with the Xantrex +40. I wanted to jam a bunch of trons in as fast as possible.
I use a Honda 2000e to power the Xantrex when we use it in the van. The van has an electric refer and two Lifeline AGMs. They take a days charge in about an hour.
Ken
We have AGMs and I called the factory. The tech said they would take all the charge I could shove into them. That is why I went with the Xantrex +40. I wanted to jam a bunch of trons in as fast as possible.
I use a Honda 2000e to power the Xantrex when we use it in the van. The van has an electric refer and two Lifeline AGMs. They take a days charge in about an hour.
Ken
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walt
- First Officer
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:05 am
- Location: Colorado "Sea Eagle" 1990 26S
I belive the batteries that I fried were Lifeline AGM's. However, I did this with an old unregulated battery charger that attemped to dump whatever it could into the batteries without regard to the battery voltage or temperature. Im guessing the temp when I fried the batteries was maybe 10 to 15F and about the time when I noticed things were not right, I saw over 16 volts on the battery. I was charging I believe 200 amp hour battery capacity with about 40 amps or so. This happened about five years ago so some detiails are lost but I beleive the charging time was not excessive at all - the damage occured fairly quickly.
Most charging methods (like the Xantrex) almost for sure would be monitoring things like voltage and temperature and would not have allowed the damage that happened to me.
Also, things like solar charging (with a regulator) and alternatrors are current output with voltage monitoring feedback which can control the current output. This "slightly" conflicts with what Moe said (and I could be wrong and dont have a reference) but since the devices are current output, you can connect both a solar charging system and an alternator output directly to the battery at the same time. Since both of the these devices have voltage monitoring and will cut back on current when certain voltages are reached, just like with the Xantrex which can put out a lot of current, you should overall be safe to do this somewhat regardless of battery capacity. In the last 10 to 15% of charging, both the solar charger and alternator should have cut back on current automatically (for example, see the numbers Rich gave on the measured alternator charging currents).
Im party basing this on my experience where if I had been monitoring voltage, I would seen numbers way out of wack and should have cut back (which a smart charger would have automatically done).
I could be wrong however so am curious what others (Moe?) think..
Most charging methods (like the Xantrex) almost for sure would be monitoring things like voltage and temperature and would not have allowed the damage that happened to me.
Also, things like solar charging (with a regulator) and alternatrors are current output with voltage monitoring feedback which can control the current output. This "slightly" conflicts with what Moe said (and I could be wrong and dont have a reference) but since the devices are current output, you can connect both a solar charging system and an alternator output directly to the battery at the same time. Since both of the these devices have voltage monitoring and will cut back on current when certain voltages are reached, just like with the Xantrex which can put out a lot of current, you should overall be safe to do this somewhat regardless of battery capacity. In the last 10 to 15% of charging, both the solar charger and alternator should have cut back on current automatically (for example, see the numbers Rich gave on the measured alternator charging currents).
Im party basing this on my experience where if I had been monitoring voltage, I would seen numbers way out of wack and should have cut back (which a smart charger would have automatically done).
I could be wrong however so am curious what others (Moe?) think..
AGM batteries accept more charge than flooded cell batteries. They also produce less heat when charging. But as walt and others on the net who destroyed expensive Lifeline batteries have testified, they CAN be overcharged. Usually not by a quality charger, however. The statement that they can accept everything you can throw at them is a good position for those who want to sell batteries.
There are two primary factors that determine the charge current. One is the state of charge of the battery and the other is the charging voltage applied. Battery manufacturers specify those voltages because they know how much charge current will result from them. As the battery charges and its own voltage rises, current decreases for a given charging voltage. Many erroneously attribute that change to the charger. Even though the charger is set for a specific voltage, a discharged battery will pull that down, but it will rise as the battery charges. Again, something sometimes attributed to the charger.
If the charger is supplying a bulk charge voltage, current will drop, but still be too high once the battery gets to 80% or so charge, unless the charger lowers voltage to that specified for "acceptance" mode charging. The same applies going from acceptance voltage to float voltage.
The C/5 rule of thumb is for flooded cell bulk mode. AGMs can safely accept even twice that in bulk mode. Where most batteries, including AGMs, are damaged is in the acceptance range somewhere around 80% and higher. At that point, charge probably shouldn't exceed C/10. But what's important is ensuring the specified charger output voltages are within the range recommended by the battery manufacturer.
Yes, you can connect the outboard alternator, solar panel, and dockside charger to the battery. My point is that you can't just add their maximum charging output, and assume for example a 5 amp solar panel and a 20 amp alternator are providing 25 amps of charging, and that in 2 hours you'll get 50 amp-hours. If the batteries are in a state of charge such that they're only accepting 5 amps from that combination, you'll only get about 90% of 2 hours times 5 amps, nowhere near 50 amp-hours.
This is why, if you're going to use more than the batteries usable capacity (generally no lower than 50% charge) and have to recharge, there's no substitute for a good battery monitor that not only shows volts and amps, but more importantly integrates varying amps either going into or out of the battery over time. Using battery voltage, especially without temperature compensating, as an indication of state of charge, is highly misleading, usually indicating the battery was charged significantly more than it actually was. This isn't to say checking voltage during charging isn't useful to ensure something has gone amiss.
Outboard alternators, many chargers, and most charge controllers don't control the peak voltage going to the batteries, instead varying pulse widths to achieve an average voltage. Like alternators (except those with 3-stage regulators), single-stage chargers are usually designed to output no more voltage than typical acceptance level. They take longer to charge in the bulk mode (< 80%) and tend to overcharge in storage conditions when float voltage should be used.
Hope this helps...
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Moe (don't have to go in until noon due to freezing rain)
There are two primary factors that determine the charge current. One is the state of charge of the battery and the other is the charging voltage applied. Battery manufacturers specify those voltages because they know how much charge current will result from them. As the battery charges and its own voltage rises, current decreases for a given charging voltage. Many erroneously attribute that change to the charger. Even though the charger is set for a specific voltage, a discharged battery will pull that down, but it will rise as the battery charges. Again, something sometimes attributed to the charger.
If the charger is supplying a bulk charge voltage, current will drop, but still be too high once the battery gets to 80% or so charge, unless the charger lowers voltage to that specified for "acceptance" mode charging. The same applies going from acceptance voltage to float voltage.
The C/5 rule of thumb is for flooded cell bulk mode. AGMs can safely accept even twice that in bulk mode. Where most batteries, including AGMs, are damaged is in the acceptance range somewhere around 80% and higher. At that point, charge probably shouldn't exceed C/10. But what's important is ensuring the specified charger output voltages are within the range recommended by the battery manufacturer.
Yes, you can connect the outboard alternator, solar panel, and dockside charger to the battery. My point is that you can't just add their maximum charging output, and assume for example a 5 amp solar panel and a 20 amp alternator are providing 25 amps of charging, and that in 2 hours you'll get 50 amp-hours. If the batteries are in a state of charge such that they're only accepting 5 amps from that combination, you'll only get about 90% of 2 hours times 5 amps, nowhere near 50 amp-hours.
This is why, if you're going to use more than the batteries usable capacity (generally no lower than 50% charge) and have to recharge, there's no substitute for a good battery monitor that not only shows volts and amps, but more importantly integrates varying amps either going into or out of the battery over time. Using battery voltage, especially without temperature compensating, as an indication of state of charge, is highly misleading, usually indicating the battery was charged significantly more than it actually was. This isn't to say checking voltage during charging isn't useful to ensure something has gone amiss.
Outboard alternators, many chargers, and most charge controllers don't control the peak voltage going to the batteries, instead varying pulse widths to achieve an average voltage. Like alternators (except those with 3-stage regulators), single-stage chargers are usually designed to output no more voltage than typical acceptance level. They take longer to charge in the bulk mode (< 80%) and tend to overcharge in storage conditions when float voltage should be used.
Hope this helps...
--
Moe (don't have to go in until noon due to freezing rain)
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Frank C
Incredibly useful information ... more about power management than just refrigeration ... thanks Moe!
The lowest cost Marine deep batteries are only $65 per 100 AH, so I elected to stick with the wet cells, so far. I took a couple of hints from Duane, choosing 2 identical deep cells instead of a starter vs. house battery. Also took DD's hint on the 12amp ProSport charger. It provides 6 amps per battery, but also dynamically shifts that output, up to 12 amps to either single battery depending on the battery states.
Important to note that these choices trade-off both cost AND vessel weight. A dedicated 20 amp charger might go faster for the first hour of charging, but it's an added 5 lbs. of permanent towing ballast. I'd rather invest that weight into battery storage ... or ice ... or beverages ... or . . .
The lowest cost Marine deep batteries are only $65 per 100 AH, so I elected to stick with the wet cells, so far. I took a couple of hints from Duane, choosing 2 identical deep cells instead of a starter vs. house battery. Also took DD's hint on the 12amp ProSport charger. It provides 6 amps per battery, but also dynamically shifts that output, up to 12 amps to either single battery depending on the battery states.
Important to note that these choices trade-off both cost AND vessel weight. A dedicated 20 amp charger might go faster for the first hour of charging, but it's an added 5 lbs. of permanent towing ballast. I'd rather invest that weight into battery storage ... or ice ... or beverages ... or . . .
Grrr... got into work only to find they'd announced closing for the rest of the day after I left home. Back now.
Frank, we only have a single 75 amp-hour flooded cell Group 24 in the C-18. Theoretically, it could accept 15 amps or more at 50% charge, but I only went with a 10 amp charger. There's no way we're going to carry a generator aboard, so any 120VAC will come from a powered slip, where we're going to have all night to recharge. The 10 amp charger gives us 2-3 amps for lights, music, charging other self-powered 12VDC things, in addition to charging the battery at C/10 when it will accept that much.
Our Airstream is a different story that would apply more to a Mac that doesn't slip overnight and will get its recharge from a portable generator. We have two 100 amp-hour Group 27 Lifelines, primarily to avoid corrosive mist around the expensive aluminum. Recharging in the boondocks means generator run time and we certainly don't want that to last all night. When I installed these expensive batteries, I also replaced the single-stage charger/converter with a 60 amp, 3-stage unit. The idea is to run one of our two EU2000s for a couple of hours or so each afternoon/evening, and the higher acceptance rate of the AGMs and larger converter/charger make that possible.
Although it's the largest unit Airstream makes, ours has very little roof space for solar panels, considering the curved roof with the air-conditioner, two skylights, and two Fantastic vents. We couldn't install enough solar to significantly contribute to our daily use, although a couple of small ones up there would be nice for maintaining the batteries when not in use. That's why we went the generator route, as well as having two, we can run the air-conditioner if needed.
Frank, we only have a single 75 amp-hour flooded cell Group 24 in the C-18. Theoretically, it could accept 15 amps or more at 50% charge, but I only went with a 10 amp charger. There's no way we're going to carry a generator aboard, so any 120VAC will come from a powered slip, where we're going to have all night to recharge. The 10 amp charger gives us 2-3 amps for lights, music, charging other self-powered 12VDC things, in addition to charging the battery at C/10 when it will accept that much.
Our Airstream is a different story that would apply more to a Mac that doesn't slip overnight and will get its recharge from a portable generator. We have two 100 amp-hour Group 27 Lifelines, primarily to avoid corrosive mist around the expensive aluminum. Recharging in the boondocks means generator run time and we certainly don't want that to last all night. When I installed these expensive batteries, I also replaced the single-stage charger/converter with a 60 amp, 3-stage unit. The idea is to run one of our two EU2000s for a couple of hours or so each afternoon/evening, and the higher acceptance rate of the AGMs and larger converter/charger make that possible.
Although it's the largest unit Airstream makes, ours has very little roof space for solar panels, considering the curved roof with the air-conditioner, two skylights, and two Fantastic vents. We couldn't install enough solar to significantly contribute to our daily use, although a couple of small ones up there would be nice for maintaining the batteries when not in use. That's why we went the generator route, as well as having two, we can run the air-conditioner if needed.
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Retcoastie
- Captain
- Posts: 673
- Joined: Sat Sep 16, 2006 7:00 am
- Sailboat: MacGregor 26X
- Location: Gray Hawk, Kentucky 2002 X "Last Flight"
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walt
- First Officer
- Posts: 209
- Joined: Mon Feb 05, 2007 9:05 am
- Location: Colorado "Sea Eagle" 1990 26S
Just one more FYI here.
I measured the current of my car stereo yesterday. I verified the current meter with a known current (resistor and power supply) so am confident in the readings.
The stereo is a Pioneer AM/FM CD/MP3 with a Ipod interface and was running music off the Ipod. Dont know the model number but I bought it last year.
The speakers are bookshelf and are inside the boat - aft sleeping area. The stereo was driving two speakers only and you could expect the currents to be higher for more speakers.
Audio level / current
-----------------------------
moderate inside the boat / 0.5 - 0.7 amps
loud inside the boat / 1.0 amps
speakers distorting / 2.5 to 3 amps
If I were in the cockpit and listening to the radio, I would guess I would be consuming about 1 amp. Lower than I had assumed..
I measured the current of my car stereo yesterday. I verified the current meter with a known current (resistor and power supply) so am confident in the readings.
The stereo is a Pioneer AM/FM CD/MP3 with a Ipod interface and was running music off the Ipod. Dont know the model number but I bought it last year.
The speakers are bookshelf and are inside the boat - aft sleeping area. The stereo was driving two speakers only and you could expect the currents to be higher for more speakers.
Audio level / current
-----------------------------
moderate inside the boat / 0.5 - 0.7 amps
loud inside the boat / 1.0 amps
speakers distorting / 2.5 to 3 amps
If I were in the cockpit and listening to the radio, I would guess I would be consuming about 1 amp. Lower than I had assumed..
Those are about the same readings I got with either a pair of Yamaha computer speakers powered by 12V or the 6-1/2" speakers driven by the PolyPlanar Zone Amp. I was/am also feeding them with an iPod.walt wrote: Audio level / current
-----------------------------
moderate inside the boat / 0.5 - 0.7 amps
loud inside the boat / 1.0 amps
speakers distorting / 2.5 to 3 amps
If I were in the cockpit and listening to the radio, I would guess I would be consuming about 1 amp. Lower than I had assumed..
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hvolkhart
- Engineer
- Posts: 119
- Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:26 pm
- Location: Crystal Lake, IL 26M, 2006, 50HP Merc
- Contact:
I just recieved my new Link 10 Battery monitor.
There is a connection where you can hook up a audio alarm for low battery.
Does anyone know how this should work since there is only 1 terminal for this and in the owners manual they talk about "Because additional circuitry is included, this option may not be retrofitted to the Link 10 in the field."
I have included a audio signal to my GPS anchor drag function and i was thinking maby i can use the busser from this unit also to sound when the battery gets low.
any comments are welcome.
Moe,
I think this is something for you
There is a connection where you can hook up a audio alarm for low battery.
Does anyone know how this should work since there is only 1 terminal for this and in the owners manual they talk about "Because additional circuitry is included, this option may not be retrofitted to the Link 10 in the field."
I have included a audio signal to my GPS anchor drag function and i was thinking maby i can use the busser from this unit also to sound when the battery gets low.
any comments are welcome.
Moe,
I think this is something for you
I'll have to take a closer look later regarding the Link 10 low-battery alarm, but typically, alarm outputs are just a switch to ground (with a limit on current of course), in the case of a boat/RV instrument, 12VDC negative.
Typical alarm installation would be a buzzer with positive 12VDC on one side of it and the other side going to the alarm output.
I'll try to confirm this later.
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Moe
Typical alarm installation would be a buzzer with positive 12VDC on one side of it and the other side going to the alarm output.
I'll try to confirm this later.
--
Moe
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hvolkhart
- Engineer
- Posts: 119
- Joined: Sun Dec 25, 2005 8:26 pm
- Location: Crystal Lake, IL 26M, 2006, 50HP Merc
- Contact:
Eric,
We had a 3-way fridge in our RV while living in Germany. I just know that they will generate quite some heat and you have to ventilate very well when using it in Gas mode. In the RV it was no problem since you could vent through the outside wall. I think this won’t be the case on a boat.
Also the gas consumption will probably be quite intense.
We had a 3-way fridge in our RV while living in Germany. I just know that they will generate quite some heat and you have to ventilate very well when using it in Gas mode. In the RV it was no problem since you could vent through the outside wall. I think this won’t be the case on a boat.
Also the gas consumption will probably be quite intense.